Should Landlords Get Their Real Estate License?

Lately, we have been getting landlords asking us if it would be a good idea for them to get their real estate license.   And where we wish we could give a definitive YES or NO, we can only explain the pros and cons to getting and holding a real estate license. 

This episode will give landlords pondering with the thought of getting their real estate license as much information as possible to, hopefully, help you make that decision.

Holding your real estate license is fantastic and has A LOT of benefits, but only if you have a plan on how you will use it.  Is it only for personal use in your rental property business or do you plan to manage other investors’ rentals as well?  The financial investment into holding that license is something to consider as well.

So, give this episode a listen and see if a real estate license will benefit your rental property business or not.

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Transcript

Stacie: 0:00

Here's what you need to consider when thinking about whether having a real estate license is best for you. Do you have the time to invest into the education, because that's a biggie right up front. Is the initial cost of that education and licensing fees worth it? What exactly do you plan to use that license for? Like just personal use? So like buying and selling your own properties and understanding the law behind property management to make your rental property investments more professional? Would you want to manage other people's properties for them? You know, would you want to help family and friends with their sales and purchases of property? You know, holding your real estate license is fantastic and has a lot of benefits if you have a plan on how you want to use it.

0:51

Welcome to your landlord resource podcast many moons ago. When I started as a landlord, I was as green as it gets. I may have had my real estate license, but I lack confidence in the hands on experience needed when it came to dealing with tenants, leases, maintenance, and bookkeeping. After many failed attempts, fast forward to today. Kevin and I have doubled our doors and created an organized, professionally operated rental property business. Want to go from overwhelmed to confident? If you're an ambitious landlord or maybe one in the making, join us as we provide strategies and teach actionable steps to help you reach your goals and the lifestyle you desire. All while building a streamlined and profitable rental property business. This is your landlord resource podcast.

Stacie: 1:41

Welcome back to Your Landlord Resource, the go to podcast for self managing landlords looking to confidently and professionally operate their rental property businesses. I am your host, Stacie Casella.

Kevin: 1:55

And I'm your co host, Kevin Kilroy. And as you know, both Stacie and I have our real estate license. Stacie is an official quote unquote Realtor because she holds her license with a real estate broker, and she keeps up on all the annual and biannual courses that are required and she pays all her annual fees. Now, I, on the other hand, have my real estate license and would be considered a salesperson because I do not hold my license under a broker or pay any annual fees to the state or national governing bodies that regulate actual Realtors, like Stacie does. And because of that, I cannot legally do any real estate transactions or receive commissions on sales or purchases. But every four years I take my tests, I keep my license active just not in the sense that I can do anything with it. The thing is anytime I want to I can select a broker and do what is called hang my license with them, pay all the annual fees and be able to complete real estate transactions. So that is why sometimes you will hear me refer to Stacie as a Realtor and myself as a salesperson. The bottom line difference is she can use her license freely now and I would have to do some work and pay some fees before I could use mine.

Stacie: 3:20

So let me clarify that a little bit more. As a member of NAR which is the National Association of Realtors, I get a special little pin with that R symbol on it and I get to call myself a Realtor. And it's funny because basically the industry needed a shorthand way of saying a real estate agent license held by someone who is also a member of NAR. So that's what the Realtor designation has come to represent. In addition to licensed real estate agents, licensed brokers, associate brokers, property managers, real estate counselors, and appraisers, they can also be Realtor So therefore all Realtors are licensed real estate professionals, but not all licensed agents are Realtors. I know it's kind of confusing. But bottom line, you have to hang your license under a broker, which is the person who basically takes on all the responsibilities, making sure that you do your job correctly. Plus you have to pay to be a member of NAR through your state or local Realtor association and take a code of ethics course every other year to remain in good standing as a Realtor. And I believe this is the case nationally. And why are we talking about these differences? Because today we're diving into a question that we've been asked about a lot lately. And that is, is it worth it for rental property owners to get their real estate license? It's a big question with a lot of information, and we're going to cover the ins and outs of getting your license. From the time and the costs involved to the potential benefits like commissions and market knowledge, tax advantages, and even managing properties for others.

Kevin: 5:12

Yeah, so we first started off with our real estate licenses and then we began investing in real estate. So if you're already a landlord and you're curious about the advantages of holding a real estate license or maybe wondering what the pros and cons are, you're in the right place. So let me kick this off with what it takes to actually get a license. First up, the time and preparation. So getting a real estate license isn't a quick process. On average, you're looking at 60 to 90 hours of coursework depending on the state. And that doesn't include the time to study for the exam itself, which is challenging.

Stacie: 5:54

Yeah, right. So back in my day, we took courses in person. I think they're still around but we used a company called First Tuesday. And I still remember driving up to San Francisco and attending my classes in person. And to be honest, for me, it worked best because I'm actually kind of shy, and I'm not one to speak up and ask questions. So being in that in person situation allowed me to ride on the coattails of other students and learn even more about the content when they ask questions. Plus, learning from a person, and this does not necessarily have to be in person, but learning from someone with experience and listening to how my instructor put the lessons in perspective by using real life examples made my learning experience night and day over just reading a book. And I believe First Tuesday is only online now though. some community colleges still offer courses for you to go in person and take a course. And for students in college, many universities offer courses as well. Kid number one took most of his real estate courses in college as part of his major, which was finance with a minor in real estate development. And then when he moved back to California, he was able to submit his transcripts for credit. Now, he did have to complete some state specific courses. Like one or two but once those were completed he could start his exam prep. For the most part the courses are available online

Kevin: 7:32

Right and those are the basics behind the initial education to get your real estate license. Now here in California you have to take a real estate practice course, real estate principles course, and then one elective and those can range from real estate finance, legal aspects of real estate, accounting, economics, appraisal, and of course property management. Now those other courses have a lot of content. Real Estate Practice will cover Real Estate Law, Real Estate Practice, Advertising, Handling Money, Disclosure, Personal Bias, and Fair Housing. Real Estate Principles will discuss topics like Property Ownership, Legal Descriptions, Contracts, Agency Relationships, Property Valuation, Financing, Closing Procedures, and Relevant Laws. This course essentially prepares students to understand the basics needed to pursue a real estate license or manage personal real estate investments.

Stacie: 8:39

So I did look it up and there are some companies out there where you can learn by live streaming a course that's going on. Maybe that's like at a university or something. And there are others that offer mentorships with their online learning. So if you're someone like me who learns best and can retain the most by listening to someone speak and teach over reading, there are some options for you out there.

Kevin: 9:05

Yeah, and you know, online learning doesn't really bother me. I kind of like how I can go at my own pace and re read something if I don't understand it the first time. You know, people learn at different paces, so sometimes in a classroom situation it might be too accelerated. Especially if they're like Stacie and fearful of asking questions in a public setting like that. The last thing about education I want to touch on is continuing education. Now, most states require you take additional courses every one to two years to keep your license active. Here in California, our requirement is 40 hours of continuing ed within the four year period we hold our license. However, most course certificates expire within 18 months, so completing them early really doesn't make much sense. One thing Stacie and I have done is to go to our local Realtor association and take an eight hour refresher course when it was offered. I mean, they covered all the things we would learn online or by reading those, you know, two inch thick books, all in eight hours. And at the end of the day, we take one test there. Then leave and complete one elective course and test whenever you're done.

Stacie: 10:20

Yeah, well, let's be real. That eight hours is the person pretty much going over every single question that could be on that test. In order, mind you. So when you refer to your notes, you can pretty much figure out the answer pretty quickly.

Kevin: 10:37

Yeah, and of course there's always those few questions that weren't discussed to give you a short little panic attack because you can't find the answer right away.

Stacie: 10:46

Yeah, well of course. They can't have everyone getting 100 percent or else it's going to throw off the authenticity of the course and what was learned. But hey you guys that is the California version of the real estate education system to get your license. You guys need to do research on your own state to find out what the requirements are.

Kevin: 11:05

And because I can imagine, some of you are wondering do I get the license in the state I live or the state where my properties are located? The answer is the state where you live. This is so if you decide to move forward with a career in real estate at some point, you can do so easily. The other reason is because some states, not many, but some, will allow what is called reciprocity. Each state has its own rules regarding reciprocity. So, you need to research if the state you want to practice in has an agreement with your current state. Now, some states offer full reciprocity, allowing you to transfer your license with minimal additional requirements. While others might only have partial reciprocity with specific states. And even if there is reciprocity, you might still stop it. Let me get through this. You might still need to complete additional state specific education, or pass a small portion of the real estate exam related to the new state's law. Go ahead

Stacie: 12:13

I could do a drinking game on that word. I mean I'd be hammered by now if I had to take a shot every time you said it in the last three minutes.

Kevin: 12:21

All right, I was thinking the same thing. It's the official word used by all states to show a mutual agreement. And I couldn't really think of another word to use. Reciprocity. And lastly, if you process transactions out of state, you can always do what is called a referral sale or purchase. And that is where you have a licensed real estate agent in the state where you or someone you know were buying or selling giving you a referral fee from their commission. Essentially they are doing a bulk of the hard work with regards to the contracts and at the property, and you can kind of help out when you can. And not sure if this is the case everywhere, but we pretty much have experienced referral rates of 25%. So that's 25 percent of their commission earned.

Stacie: 13:15

And that might seem high, but there's a couple of factors to consider. So often you're the one who's bringing the property to them. They're not the ones that are searching for, evaluating, and then finding you the rental to consider. So all that work of finding the property that works within your buy box, like checking the neighborhood and understanding the rental rates and knowing what your parameters are and presenting the options to you are not performed. They do, however, depending on whether you're buying or selling, have to handle the offer, the contracts, um, meeting the inspectors and the appraisers, et cetera. And I want to touch briefly on the new NAR regulations after that historical lawsuit all about buyer's commissions. We have not seen a change in commissions. So most sellers are still giving the two and a half to 3 percent commission to the buyer's agents. It's just one thing that is more negotiable now. And honestly, it always has been. It just had become standard practice to assume that you're going to split the selling agent's commission and now it needs to be discussed. And when I say discussed, it's a box that's checked or a percent that's listed.

Kevin: 14:32

Uh, should we talk quickly about the referrals you have been able to secure this year by having your real estate license?

Stacie: 14:39

Sure. All right, you guys so this year alone, I have completed three transactions and likely will have one more before the end of the year. And one of those was an eight unit apartment building where I represented the seller. And for that one, I pulled my broker in and we co listed the property. And the reason for that was twofold. One, when our brokerage takes on the sale of a rental property, especially a multifamily one, we handle the property management at a reduced price for the seller. This is so that we can make sure that we get to know the tenants, can access the property easily, and make sure that all the I's are dotted and T's are crossed when it comes to the leases. We are looking at the property from the perspective of the buyer and what they will want to see and then making adjustments to give them the best property possible. So I handled the property management for that and ran all the legal stuff, like the leases, the turnovers, security deposits, et cetera, through the brokerage. And my broker handled the sale. And I'll be honest, my expertise is in property management, not sales. I can read a lease forward and backward. But a purchase agreement is a whole different animal. So my broker handled working with the owner on what updates needed to be completed. Like they needed a new roof and a new paint job. And then they spruced up the landscaping and improved the curb appeal. Now I did handle the showings, because I could sell the units and the area. I was able to discuss the investment side of the purchase and where a new owner could add value to the property. Bottom line, my broker and I made a really good team and we split the duties. Again, I brought the seller in, and I knew her and her family personally, so I was able to discuss with her, in layman terms, what everything meant. And she trusted me, which is a huge responsibility, and it's one that I do not take lightly. But in the end, she got the sale. Now it was for slightly less than she hoped, but the tenants were somewhat challenging, so she was relieved to get them off her plate. The other two transactions were one of mine, the Chico property that we held for way longer than we should have, and a piece of land that a family member wanted to sell. Again, I contacted a couple of great Realtors in the area of the properties being sold, explained I was referring the sales to them and let them do their thing.

Kevin: 17:19

So, when the transactions were completed, you were sent 25 percent of their commission, right?

Stacie: 17:26

Yeah, kind of. So, in the close of the sale, through the title company handling the transaction, my portion of the commission gets sent to the broker, and he takes a small portion of it to cover the errors and omissions insurance that he carries. Just in case a lawsuit comes about after the fact. And I'm sent the remainder, which for me is 80 percent of the referred amount.

Kevin: 17:49

So your broker keeps 20%?

Stacie: 17:53

And, you know, I think that's fair. It didn't start off that way. When I first started he kept 40 percent because I was learning and he had to spend time teaching me. Then the more transactions that I completed, the more I learned and his portion taken was less and less until his maximum allowed of 20% was reached. You know, some brokers are gonna do 10%, someone go less than 25%. So that is something to consider when finding somewhere to hang your real estate license. And I will say that I leaned on this broker hard when I first started I was as green as they got and I really had a lot to learn.

Kevin: 18:31

Which is kind of funny because I know a couple times he's contacted you for help, right?

Stacie: 18:36

Yes, he has. Not too often, but since I started way back in 2008, I have pretty much done property management full time. And I will say he runs things pretty old school. And, and that's fine because the properties that he manages have owners that operate things old school too. So, I mean, it works for him most of the time. Here's what you need to consider when thinking about whether having a real estate license is best for you. Do you have the time to invest into the education, because that's a biggie right up front. Is the initial cost of that education and licensing fees worth it? What exactly do you plan to use that license for? Like just personal use? So like buying and selling your own properties and understanding the law behind property management to make your rental property investments more professional? Would you want to manage other people's properties for them? You know, would you want to help family and friends with their sales and purchases of property? You know, holding your real estate license is fantastic and has a lot of benefits if you have a plan on how you want to use it.

Kevin: 19:47

Speaking of costs, licensing is not free, unfortunately. You'll need to budget for course fees, exam fees, and your license registration. And on average, it can run anywhere from$500 to$1500 depending on your state and the programs you use. So, I think annually, Stacie, you pay what? Like$1500 for the local association, including the MLS fees?

Stacie: 20:15

Yeah, I think it's closer to like$1700 a year for both those now.

Kevin: 20:18

Wow. So that's a lot of money to have to pay per year if you're not doing regular transactions then. And additionally, there are costs associated with maintaining the license, like the State Department of Real Estate renewal fees and additional coursework every year or two. Now on the flip side, we know other landlords who see it as a small price to pay because they save money on commissions when they buy or sell their properties. If you're regularly buying or upgrading properties, those commission savings can make a significant difference. I know Stacie has already touched on commissions, but one of the biggest advantages of having a real estate license is that you is the ability to earn commissions when you buy and sell property. If you're someone who actively buys properties as investments, that commission could be a solid advantage. I mean, especially if you're in a market with high property values, much like here in Northern California. With your license, you can save about two to 3 percent in commissions on each transaction. And that's if you handle the transactions yourself. If not, like Stacie mentioned, you can refer the transaction to another Realtor and earn some money back that way.

Stacie: 21:35

Yeah. And the only downside to that is that you have to pay taxes on those earnings. So I know, tough problem to have to deal with, but those taxes can add up. So you have to consider reserving some of the commissions to pay those taxes. Now, you would receive a 1099 from your broker for those commissions, and if you're not aware of the taxation with a 1099, there are no taxes removed from your broker, because you're considered a contract worker, not an employee. You are responsible for paying all the taxes. So the state, federal, unemployment, et cetera. So as a safeguard, I generally will hold aside 25 percent of my commissions just to be safe. Now, after my taxes are completed, if I have to pay, I can pull from those tax reserves that I have held to pay my tax liability. If I don't have to pay, which is often the case, those tax reserves are now mine to do what I please with, which is usually to reinvest into a property, either by way of adding it to reserves to an existing property, so I can do improvements, or buying a new one. You know, sometimes we'll hold on to it so we can take a vacation or save for something big like kid number one's wedding coming up next year.

Kevin: 22:57

Better get going on that one. I mean that's gonna be here before we know it, right?

Stacie: 23:02

Yeah

Kevin: 23:03

But seriously on the flip side, if you're just managing a couple of properties and aren't planning to buy or sell off and the benefits of having your real estate license might be less impactful. So consider the cost of getting that license as well as the potential benefits. Now, speaking of benefits, let's talk a little bit more about those. Another big benefit to holding a real estate license is the access to market data. With a license, you gain access to the Multiple Listing Service, or MLS, which gives you a huge advantage in market analysis. Can you get this from having a good relationship with your Realtor? Yeah, absolutely. But not if you're looking to buy or evaluate properties that are out of your area or state. You would have to have a Realtor to do that work for you, and honestly, if it's just for evaluation, that can be a pretty big ask. I mean Realtors will help you initially, but they will not continue unless they know there's something coming out of it for them.

Stacie: 24:06

Yeah, you guys, the MLS is gold for rental property owners because it provides a real time snapshot of comparable rentals and sales listings in the area. Can you get that from public sites like Zillow or Realtor. com? Yeah, but you have to dig for it. On the MLS, you can set your parameters and do a comprehensive search. You also have access to old or expired listings where you can pull information as well. You know, on those public sites, you only have access to what is currently on the market, unless you type in a specific address and search property by property, which is ridiculous. Several times I have used MLS data to help a landlord price a unit correctly or make a more competitive offer on a property, but for smaller landlords managing just a property or two, it might be overkill. So it all depends on your end goal.

Kevin: 25:01

You know, holding a real estate license can also open up networking opportunities and like Stacie mentioned earlier, allows you to earn referral fees. So for landlords with ambitions beyond self management, this can be a great way to expand your reach. So, consider if you get your license and you begin to do property management for other landlords in your area. If and when those landlords want to buy another property or sell the one you manage, you can represent them for that sale. And side note here, if you have a property management company that you use already, check your contract. It has become common practice for licensed property managers to have a clause in their contract that states that they get to represent the owner should they decide to sell the rental property. And if you love them and they do a fantastic job, hey great. But if they do a mediocre job at managing your rental, likely are not going to be a great salesperson for you. So, just food for thought. But yes, having your license means you network and pick up referrals or sales and earn extra income and potentially expand your business.

Stacie: 26:14

Yeah, but of course that networking does take time. So if you're in a nine to five job, this aspect might take some time to cultivate and achieve. All right, now let's talk about one of the biggest, often overlook benefits of getting licensed as a real estate professional, and that's the income tax advantages. This applies particularly if you're a full time landlord who manages their own properties or plans to someday, because these tax benefits can be pretty substantial. If you're classified as a real estate professional for tax purposes, you might be able to deduct passive losses against your active income. Which is a huge benefit, especially for those with substantial rental portfolios. So let's say you're a landlord with a high tax liability from other active income sources. Like maybe you operate another business or you're pulling dividends from investments, or you have a large capital gain on a property that you decide to sell and not 1031 exchange. If you meet the IRS requirements as a real estate professional, you can often use rental property losses to offset that income, which can reduce your overall tax burden.

Kevin: 27:28

But keep in mind, it's not an easy qualification to meet. The IRS requires that you spend more than 750 hours a year in real estate activities. And that these hours constitute more than half of your total working hours. So this means it's usually only an option for full time landlords or those who are very involved in their properties.

Stacie: 27:53

Yeah, I think we figured it out the other day, right? I mean, because that more than half of total working hours or the 50 percent part is kind of confusing. So whatever hours you log in for another job or business, you must be able to prove you work the same amount of hours or more in real estate business. 50 percent or more of your overall hours need to be in real estate. So if you're multitasking, stop and listen to what I'm about to say. If you work a nine to five for someone else, logging in 40 hours a week, for 52 weeks per year, that's around 2080 hours a year. Essentially, you, as an individual, have to be able to prove you worked 80 plus hours a week in a year to qualify. And it's nearly impossible to prove that you did that unless you have logged hours and can 100 percent prove that you did that work, as the IRS does look at if you work for someone else and will audit you asking for proof of the time completed. There are many court cases on this where landlords have lost because they cannot provide the proof of those hours and what work they performed during those hours. Which means you have to prove that for that year while you worked full time for someone else, that you also worked 40 or more hours a week every week of the year over and above those 40 hours worked on your nine to five. I believe you have to exceed those hours by your other employment by one hour. So, for the most part, that's pretty tough to do, especially if you have a family to care for or other responsibilities beyond your job in being a landlord. Can it be done? Absolutely. Other people have proved that they've done it. You just have to be very mindful about tracking hours and what you did to be able to prove it. Now, another workaround to this is if you're married and you file a joint tax return with your spouse, who does not work full time for someone else. That spouse can get their real estate license and do the 750 hours of work for your rental properties. And if they have another job, they just have to be able to prove that their hours in real estate were at least one hour longer than their other employment. So, if you file a joint tax return, you can then use your spouse's real estate professional status to get those tax advantages. And it can pay off significantly when tax season comes around.

Kevin: 30:37

And it's also important to mention that this isn't just about deductions. If you're doing substantial renovations, having the real estate professional status can also help you offset high repair and upgrade costs. And those expenses can be deducted in real time rather than being depreciated over years. I would say it is definitely worth discussing with your tax professional as they can help you understand whether the tax benefits justify the commitment to of becoming a licensed full time real estate professional.

Stacie: 31:10

And let me jump back in here and tell you that those annual fees that I have to pay the$1700 plus the courses are all expenses that can be written off as well. So even if you don't process any transactions, you can still deduct the costs associated with holding your license along with those expenses or losses that occur. Which for us is much larger than the$1700 that I have to pay every year.

Kevin: 31:36

Yeah, very good point. You having that real estate professional status has been a real game changer for us in our taxes, especially the last couple years.

Stacie: 31:45

Yeah

Kevin: 31:47

Now here's another important legal aspect about having your real estate license. In many states, if you want to manage properties for others, a real estate license is required. California, Florida, Oregon, and Virginia, to name a few. And in most cases, if you're licensed, as explained earlier, you have to operate under a real estate broker supervision. This can add complexity if you're thinking about expanding your business to manage properties beyond your own. When you hold your license with a broker and manage other people's properties, you will have to run your fees and earnings through that broker who will take their share. They are legally responsible for every transaction you conduct, so they have to hold an errors and omissions insurance in case any legal action comes from transactions you bring through their brokerage. That means if you have a tenant sue for a fair housing complaint or a botched security deposit refund, the owner who is responsible for paying for that lawsuit, will eventually come back to you and your broker for compensation. That's where the errors and omissions insurance comes in. I will say that in California, at least, you are allowed to self manage your own rental properties without a license. And you are also allowed to manage rental properties for immediate family members without a license as well. That's limited to your spouse, child, or a parent. You cannot legally handle marketing, leases, tenant placement, or ongoing management for someone else, even a sibling, without a license held by a broker, and especially not if you're being compensated for it. The only workaround is if you're an employee of that person, not a 1099 contractor receiving a commission via a 1099. Most all states are like this, except a few. And of course, Idaho is one of the exceptions. Any Joe Schmo can wake up and decide to be a property manager and not have to be certified or hold a license. I mean, nothing.

Stacie: 33:55

Yeah, and that's absolutely nuts, you guys. The property manager that we have to use in Idaho was not licensed until just recently. And we don't know this for sure, but our guess is that the license that he got in 2023 was so that he could add that clause about representing landlords in a sale. Now just a guess though, no hard facts to support it. It's just a hunch off an email that we received saying that he could now represent us in the sale of our property if we were ready to sell.

Kevin: 34:25

Yeah, regardless smart move on his part though. So Idaho along with Maine, Kansas, and Vermont are the only states that currently do not require any license or certification to manage rentals for other people. Now, let's go over the biggest benefits of having your real estate license, specifically for landlords who want to self manage. One of the clearest benefits is having a better understanding of the real estate market. So, even if you're not buying properties every month, knowing how to evaluate properties and set competitive rents is very valuable. By far the greatest benefit is having control over your own transactions without relying on an agent. For example, if you're negotiating the lease or buying a new investment property, having that extra market knowledge and confidence can help you get a better deal. As a licensed real estate agent, you have access to all your state specific leases and addendums as well. Plus, because of licensing requirements, you are kept up to date on the laws, regulations, and ordinances between landlords and tenants on a regular basis.

Stacie: 35:38

Alright, so here's the bottom line. If you're a landlord who sees yourself expanding into property management, or if you plan to buy and sell properties regularly, the benefits of a real estate license could easily outweigh the costs and the time that it takes to manage your license. But if you're managing just a couple properties and don't plan on expanding, the cost and the time required may not pay off. So think about your long term goals. Are you open to managing properties for others? And are you looking to grow your portfolio? Or are you simply focused on just maintaining the properties that you have? And most importantly, do you have the time and desire to learn all you need to get and hold that license? And whatever your answers are, we hope that this episode has helped you make a more informed decision on whether getting a real estate license is right for you. And hey, if you got at least one good tidbit of information out of it, would you do us a favor? Would you please leave a kind review of the podcast so that other landlords can find us too. If you want to hear more, follow or subscribe to the podcast so that each week the episodes are downloaded right to your favorite podcast platform. And we'd love to stay in contact with you. If you have a question or you want to suggest a subject for a podcast, you can text us at 650 489 4447. That's 650 489 4447. Or you can email us at Stacie yourlandlordresource com. That's Stacie with an I E or Kevin yourlandlordresource com. We will link those all in the show notes as well. Also in the show notes, you can find links to all the downloads that we offer, ways to sign up for our free newsletter, and the waiting list for upcoming 2025 course on placing your ideal tenant. There's also links to our private Facebook group that's just for self managing landlords, and our social media accounts on Instagram, Facebook, and YouTube, where we share very informative and detailed tips and tricks for landlords. So check those out. I think I covered it all. Thanks again. And until next time you've got this landlords.